Preface
What follows is a recent interchange I had online with a fellow believer on the topic of conditional immortality. The exchange is slightly abridged from its original form. I have made a few minor revisions to my response below.Conditional Immortality: an Interchange
Linda D. Gabriel: I did not read this whole book [Rob Bell, Love Wins: A Book about Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2011)], because frankly, I didn’t want to waste my time. From the parts of the book that I have read, Rob Bell often sounds a lot like the serpent in the Garden of Eden who said to Eve, “Did God really say…?” I have one question for Mr. Bell: What Bible are you reading?
J. D. Gallé: To be fair, the majority of the Christian world does not believe that anyone truly dies, but everyone lives for ever: some in everlasting torment, others in everlasting bliss. In other words, the majority of Christians believe that the final ‘death’ of the wicked, in actuality, is everlasting life in suffering. The serpent in Genesis cast doubt on God’s word that the disobedient will die. How is it, then, that (according to the conventional view) everyone lives for ever?
Gabriel: I’m not exactly sure I’m following if you side with Bell or not. Here’s the thing: no one lives forever in a physical mortal body, but the soul is immortal and will spend eternity somewhere — with God, or separated from God and in torment. This is the part that Bell doesn't seem to agree with. Man did in fact die when Adam sinned in the Garden — died spiritually, and introduced physical death into the world as well as a part of the curse of sin. Thus every man is “born dead” and will remain spiritually dead unless God gives him spiritual life — hence the term “born again.”
Gallé: The warning of death for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 2.17 cannot be taken in a purely ‘spiritual’ sense. Unless you are willing to argue that we are to understand the tree of life in some strange, esoteric sense, the threat of death is best understood as the reversal of life, the return to non-life, non-consciousness. After the first man’s transgression, Adam is told that he will return to the dust from which he came by the Creator (Gen. 3.19). In the light of the creation account of Genesis 1–3, to say that death is a return to non-life and a form of de-creation fits well with the narrative. Yahweh banishes Adam from the garden of Eden in order that he may not become immortalised in his fallen state. We are not left to infer as to how this is accomplished. Without having access to the tree of life, the death of the first man is made a certainty (Gen. 3.22–24; 5.5; Rom. 5.12; 1 Cor. 15.21–22). Immortal human life is linked with a positive relationship to God and is thus derivative; it is not an innate human quality as a result of creation or being made in the image of God. You will search in vain in the Genesis account for the notion that humans possess immortal souls or spirits (or, I might add, anywhere in the entirety of Scripture).
Gabriel: Genesis 2:7 describes the creation of man as being very unique from all other creation: God breathed into man, and he became a living soul.
Gallé: I am not denying the unique role of humankind in the economy of God’s creation as recounted in the Genesis narrative. The notion I am contending against is that Genesis provides us any indication that humans have been given immaterial, immortal souls that will survive the body after death. I do not believe such a reading can be sustained. The term nephesh is used throughout Genesis to refer to animal life (Gen. 1.20, 21; 2.19; 9.10) as well as human life (2.7; 12.5). Not once is it used in Genesis to refer to disembodied life, human or animal.
Gabriel: I believe that Scripture teaches that when Adam sinned against God in the Garden, he brought physical death into the world and would himself experience death. (Obviously he didn’t drop down dead on the spot.) See Romans 5:12; Eph. 2:1; Romans 6. But whereas before he sinned he had a spiritual relationship with God, after he sinned this relationship was cut off and Adam became spiritually dead in his relationship with God. In many places it talks about man being dead in sin, and that only by the Spirit can a person be made alive. This again is obviously speaking about a person who is physically alive, but not spiritually. I think if I am understanding you correctly, we agree on this point.
Gallé: In choosing to eat of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve breached their relationship with the Creator by their disobedience. I suppose one may refer to their resulting alienation from God as a kind ‘spiritual death’ if he or she wishes, but I personally do not find the terminology particularly helpful. The death our first parents were warned of was physical in nature. We are provided no indication in Genesis that there is (or will be) any survival of the person’s consciousness after death. Death involves the dissolution of the entire person and his/her relationship with the environment, animal life, human life, and God. This, in my view, is what makes the believer’s future hope of participating in the resurrection life of Jesus Christ at his return so pivotal. Even believers will not be made immortal until the second advent of Christ (see 1 Cor. 15.50–55).
To reiterate what I stated earlier, death will inevitably result when persons are alienated from God; immortality is conditioned upon a positive relationship with the Creator. The two are inseparable.
Gabriel: But it sounds like you’re saying that if a person is not saved/does not have a relationship with God/is without Christ when he dies, then he ceases to exist.
Gallé: I have defined death in terms of a return to non-life and non-consciousness, yes.
Gabriel: How do you explain Heb. 9:27, where it says it is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgment?
Gallé: Read Hebrews 9.27 and 28 (ESV): ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.’ I do not believe the context will bear out the notion that persons are immediately judged upon death. Christ first came as a purification offering for sins (see Heb. 1.3b), but when he returns he will come for the final salvation of his people. From the perspective of the dead it will be as though no time has elapsed when they are raised to judgement.
Gabriel: How can a person who is dead stand before God to be judged?
Gallé: The righteous and the unrighteous alike will be raised and judged according to their works. These two resurrection events, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust, will not occur prior to the return of Christ. I am not certain whether the unrighteous will be raised and judged at the second advent of Jesus or after a literal one thousand year millennial reign of Christ and the saints. That said, it is certain that the righteous dead will be raised to immortal life at the parousia.
Gabriel: [1] And Jesus himself taught about hell, [2] and the wicked going to a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” To what was he referring then?
Gallé: (1) It is undoubtedly true that Jesus taught his disciples of a future day of judgement prior to his final ascension. The term Gehenna (i.e. ‘hell’) primarily occurs in Matthew (5.22, 29–30; 10.28; 18.9; 23.15, 33); seven of its twelve occurrences in the New Testament are found in Matthew’s Gospel. Jesus refers to the Gehenna of fire (tēn geennan tou puros) in Matthew 18.9 (cf. 5.22) interchangeably with the aiōnion fire (to pur to aiōnion) in Matthew 18.8 (cf. 25.41). In the light of the future judgement scene depicted in Matthew 25.31–46, we must understand that no one will be cast into the aiōnion/Gehenna of fire prior to the final judgement (Matt. 25.41).
(2) The phrase ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ occurs six times in Matthew (8.12; 13.42, 50; 22.13; 24.51; 25.30) and once in Luke (13.28). For a detailed exposition of the seven ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ texts, see Kim Papaioannou, The Geography of Hell in the Teaching of Jesus: Gehenna, Hades, the Abyss, the Outer Darkness Where There Is Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth (Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications, 2013), pages 175–233. I do not maintain that the ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ expression is to be understood as the infliction of externally imposed pain, nor do I believe that it carries the sense of ongoing duration.
J. D. Gallé: To be fair, the majority of the Christian world does not believe that anyone truly dies, but everyone lives for ever: some in everlasting torment, others in everlasting bliss. In other words, the majority of Christians believe that the final ‘death’ of the wicked, in actuality, is everlasting life in suffering. The serpent in Genesis cast doubt on God’s word that the disobedient will die. How is it, then, that (according to the conventional view) everyone lives for ever?
Gabriel: I’m not exactly sure I’m following if you side with Bell or not. Here’s the thing: no one lives forever in a physical mortal body, but the soul is immortal and will spend eternity somewhere — with God, or separated from God and in torment. This is the part that Bell doesn't seem to agree with. Man did in fact die when Adam sinned in the Garden — died spiritually, and introduced physical death into the world as well as a part of the curse of sin. Thus every man is “born dead” and will remain spiritually dead unless God gives him spiritual life — hence the term “born again.”
Gallé: The warning of death for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 2.17 cannot be taken in a purely ‘spiritual’ sense. Unless you are willing to argue that we are to understand the tree of life in some strange, esoteric sense, the threat of death is best understood as the reversal of life, the return to non-life, non-consciousness. After the first man’s transgression, Adam is told that he will return to the dust from which he came by the Creator (Gen. 3.19). In the light of the creation account of Genesis 1–3, to say that death is a return to non-life and a form of de-creation fits well with the narrative. Yahweh banishes Adam from the garden of Eden in order that he may not become immortalised in his fallen state. We are not left to infer as to how this is accomplished. Without having access to the tree of life, the death of the first man is made a certainty (Gen. 3.22–24; 5.5; Rom. 5.12; 1 Cor. 15.21–22). Immortal human life is linked with a positive relationship to God and is thus derivative; it is not an innate human quality as a result of creation or being made in the image of God. You will search in vain in the Genesis account for the notion that humans possess immortal souls or spirits (or, I might add, anywhere in the entirety of Scripture).
Gabriel: Genesis 2:7 describes the creation of man as being very unique from all other creation: God breathed into man, and he became a living soul.
Gallé: I am not denying the unique role of humankind in the economy of God’s creation as recounted in the Genesis narrative. The notion I am contending against is that Genesis provides us any indication that humans have been given immaterial, immortal souls that will survive the body after death. I do not believe such a reading can be sustained. The term nephesh is used throughout Genesis to refer to animal life (Gen. 1.20, 21; 2.19; 9.10) as well as human life (2.7; 12.5). Not once is it used in Genesis to refer to disembodied life, human or animal.
Gabriel: I believe that Scripture teaches that when Adam sinned against God in the Garden, he brought physical death into the world and would himself experience death. (Obviously he didn’t drop down dead on the spot.) See Romans 5:12; Eph. 2:1; Romans 6. But whereas before he sinned he had a spiritual relationship with God, after he sinned this relationship was cut off and Adam became spiritually dead in his relationship with God. In many places it talks about man being dead in sin, and that only by the Spirit can a person be made alive. This again is obviously speaking about a person who is physically alive, but not spiritually. I think if I am understanding you correctly, we agree on this point.
Gallé: In choosing to eat of the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve breached their relationship with the Creator by their disobedience. I suppose one may refer to their resulting alienation from God as a kind ‘spiritual death’ if he or she wishes, but I personally do not find the terminology particularly helpful. The death our first parents were warned of was physical in nature. We are provided no indication in Genesis that there is (or will be) any survival of the person’s consciousness after death. Death involves the dissolution of the entire person and his/her relationship with the environment, animal life, human life, and God. This, in my view, is what makes the believer’s future hope of participating in the resurrection life of Jesus Christ at his return so pivotal. Even believers will not be made immortal until the second advent of Christ (see 1 Cor. 15.50–55).
To reiterate what I stated earlier, death will inevitably result when persons are alienated from God; immortality is conditioned upon a positive relationship with the Creator. The two are inseparable.
Gabriel: But it sounds like you’re saying that if a person is not saved/does not have a relationship with God/is without Christ when he dies, then he ceases to exist.
Gallé: I have defined death in terms of a return to non-life and non-consciousness, yes.
Gabriel: How do you explain Heb. 9:27, where it says it is appointed unto man once to die, and then judgment?
Gallé: Read Hebrews 9.27 and 28 (ESV): ‘And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.’ I do not believe the context will bear out the notion that persons are immediately judged upon death. Christ first came as a purification offering for sins (see Heb. 1.3b), but when he returns he will come for the final salvation of his people. From the perspective of the dead it will be as though no time has elapsed when they are raised to judgement.
Gabriel: How can a person who is dead stand before God to be judged?
Gallé: The righteous and the unrighteous alike will be raised and judged according to their works. These two resurrection events, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust, will not occur prior to the return of Christ. I am not certain whether the unrighteous will be raised and judged at the second advent of Jesus or after a literal one thousand year millennial reign of Christ and the saints. That said, it is certain that the righteous dead will be raised to immortal life at the parousia.
Gabriel: [1] And Jesus himself taught about hell, [2] and the wicked going to a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” To what was he referring then?
Gallé: (1) It is undoubtedly true that Jesus taught his disciples of a future day of judgement prior to his final ascension. The term Gehenna (i.e. ‘hell’) primarily occurs in Matthew (5.22, 29–30; 10.28; 18.9; 23.15, 33); seven of its twelve occurrences in the New Testament are found in Matthew’s Gospel. Jesus refers to the Gehenna of fire (tēn geennan tou puros) in Matthew 18.9 (cf. 5.22) interchangeably with the aiōnion fire (to pur to aiōnion) in Matthew 18.8 (cf. 25.41). In the light of the future judgement scene depicted in Matthew 25.31–46, we must understand that no one will be cast into the aiōnion/Gehenna of fire prior to the final judgement (Matt. 25.41).
(2) The phrase ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ occurs six times in Matthew (8.12; 13.42, 50; 22.13; 24.51; 25.30) and once in Luke (13.28). For a detailed exposition of the seven ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ texts, see Kim Papaioannou, The Geography of Hell in the Teaching of Jesus: Gehenna, Hades, the Abyss, the Outer Darkness Where There Is Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth (Eugene, OR: Pickwick Publications, 2013), pages 175–233. I do not maintain that the ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ expression is to be understood as the infliction of externally imposed pain, nor do I believe that it carries the sense of ongoing duration.
Addenda
Addendum A (n.d.). Scriptural quotations marked ‘ESV’ are taken from the English Standard Version, 2011 anglicised text edition.
Addendum B (10, 24 Apr. 2023). For noteworthy literature supporting the conditional immortality of humankind and the ultimate extinction of the faithless and evildoers from both biblical and theological perspectives, see my relevant Amazon Idea List by visiting the following web page*:
Original content copyright © J. D. Gallé, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021, 2023. All rights reserved.
* Unless otherwise indicated, I do not earn commissions (or favours, for that matter) for the purchase of books recommended or referenced on this website or via my Amazon Idea Lists. For further information, see my web page, ‘A Word on The Neo-Remonstrance Blog’.
Latest revisions: 1 November 2016 (modified and added two citations to brackets); 13 January 2017 (added hyphenation to three terms and converted brackets to commas in one place); 7 February 2017 (added a comma in one place; added hyphenation to one term); 24 February 2018 (altered title ‘Conditional Immortality: An Exchange’ to ‘Conditional Immortality: An Interchange’; converted thirty colons to full stops; altered abbreviation ‘pp.’ to ‘pages’); altered one word in preface (12 Jul. 2021); altered one scriptural abbreviation (23 Nov. 2021).
Latest revisions: 1 November 2016 (modified and added two citations to brackets); 13 January 2017 (added hyphenation to three terms and converted brackets to commas in one place); 7 February 2017 (added a comma in one place; added hyphenation to one term); 24 February 2018 (altered title ‘Conditional Immortality: An Exchange’ to ‘Conditional Immortality: An Interchange’; converted thirty colons to full stops; altered abbreviation ‘pp.’ to ‘pages’); altered one word in preface (12 Jul. 2021); altered one scriptural abbreviation (23 Nov. 2021).
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